Were you to magically head back in time to 1998, you’d find yourself rapidly possessed of the belief that Headswim were poised for superstardom. The band had risen to prominence with Flood (1994), the first album of an eight-album deal they had inked with Sony. Unfortunately, tragedy struck when Matthew Glendining – brother of band members Dan and Tom, and the artist behind Flood’s cover – passed away from Leukaemia, causing Headswim to step away from the treadmill for a time.
When they returned, the band had changed significantly. Opting for a more refined, singer-songwriter style that sat comfortably alongside the likes of Muse, Radiohead, Life of Agony (circa Soul Searching Sun) and Feeder, Headswim had also reset their aesthetic, with the result that Despite yourself both looked and felt very different to what had gone before.
From the outside, all looked rosy. Headswim were performing major festivals, posters could be found everywhere you looked, and the band even turned up on children’s TV – the latter arguably a chore they could have done without. Behind the scenes, however, burn out was setting in, and the band were struggling to produce a follow up. Sessions at Peter Gabriel’s famed Real World studios proved abortive and, by 2001, the band had been dropped by Sony and were left only with two excellent albums, a mountain of debt, and a handful of songs left in the vault – a number of which remain unreleased to this day.
Their story was not quite done, however. Years later, when bassist Clovis happened upon an article that stated Sony had forgiven debts on bands over a certain age, he realised that, if nothing else, Headswim’s albums could finally be re-released. When a fan leading a fan page also happened to be the head of excellent independent label Trapped Animal Records, it not only kicked off a reissue program, but even brought the band together for a triumphant set at The Underworld, recorded and released last year as Flood Live.
Now, with 1998’s Despite Yourself coming out as a deluxe reissue (and making its vinyl debut), we caught up with Clovis to discuss the history of the band, its final years, and what (if anything) might come out of the renewed interest in the band.
Hey hello!
Hello!
Hey, how’s it going Philip, can you see and hear me?
I can and hopefully you can hear me as well.
How are you doing?
Fantastic! Thank you for taking time to talk to me.
You are more than welcome, thanks for the opportunity. It’s good to see you and I’m looking forward to it.
When Flood came out – the reissue, I mean -I was really excited to see Headswim’s name in print once more, and the reissue was just amazing. But then, thinking back to when Despite Yourself came out, I think I was 16 turning 17 and, in that respect, (I actually didn’t get Flood the first-time round) – Despite Yourself was kind of my album if you like – my way into the band. So, as much as I adore Flood, I guess this was the more exciting release for me.
Yeah, you did it the other way round
Yeah, yeah. I still found my way back, though. So, yeah, there’s so much to talk about with this album in particular and, I guess, a good starting point is with this reissue series as a whole – if I understand correctly – came about because you saw an article about Sony cancelling debt for bands of a certain age, which is kind of wild that you found out through an article and you weren’t told or anything.
Yeah, that’s true, Philip. I know, I know – serendipity, right?
Yeah I just happened to see it and I thought, well, that applies to me – that’s Headswim – we signed to Sony pre-2000 and we left that label with a lot of debt, which meant that securing any kind of reissue (either with Sony or another record label) would be difficult because Sony would want all this money in order to make it plausible.
So, it was like… it was an opportunity. So yeah, if I hadn’t seen that, I probably wouldn’t be talking to you now.
I’ve enjoyed the programme, because it’s not been as straightforward as some reissue series. Obviously, you did Flood, and that came out as this lovely deluxe vinyl, but then you created something new because you did the live release show, which was recorded by Andy Shillito and, I guess, that was a way to address how the band split back when you were trying to get the third album off the ground?
You got it. Yeah, it all happened by accident, really. First of all, we weren’t even going to play again. But we were trying to think of a way of celebrating the re-release of Flood. We were going to have, like, a sort of question-and-answer session in some sort of venue – I don’t know, above a pub or something, you know what I mean. And then, the more we spoke about that amongst the band, it it seemed obvious that that wouldn’t be it. We were still able to play, and still on speaking terms, so that’s how the gig came about.
But, it was always like, “we’re just going to do this one gig as a kind of celebration of the reissue of the album”. And yeah, it was kind it was a way of re-addressing the band, what we did, how the band disbanded, and then what we’ve gone on to do since then.
You know, in some ways it’s good to look back, Phil, and in other ways it’s not, because you’re kind of looking back at yourself… you’re obviously the same person, right? But you were younger, with a different mindset. Life then washes over you and either you come out the other side scrubbed clean, or you’re sloughing off the filth.
So, yeah, I don’t know… it definitely was a way of looking back at a period in our lives – how about that, there you go!
And again, looking at Flood – they’re two very different feeling albums and, obviously, for very good reasons there was a lengthy period between Flood coming out and Despite Yourself coming out. Now, obviously, as you get older, your tastes change and your musical abilities change, and that kind of gap was more substantial than most bands would have had on a major label at that time. Do you feel, looking back, that it feels almost like there was an album in the middle missing, that would have allowed for the level of progression that took place?
That’s a good question. Absolutely right. Yeah, you’ve focused in on something there.
Yeah, you’re absolutely right. After Flood had been released and we toured it, we went back into the rehearsal room and began to write another record like Flood in the same way – with each band member bringing ideas into the rehearsal room. And we’d bang out a song from disparate ideas that, somehow, we managed to glue together.
But it was at that point that Dan was becoming more confident as a songwriter and he began to bring in more fully formed songs that he’d written and composed himself, which were irresistible because they were obviously a step up in terms of artistry and songwriting.
So, we were met with that conundrum – you’re quite right – where we could have released another record that would have been a bit like Flood but, I don’t know, slightly different. But the way it went – the way that Dan was writing songs – we decided to go that route, because the songs that Dan was writing in that fully formed, finished way – they didn’t sit well with the songs written in the old way – the way that we wrote Flood. There was a marked difference in the approaches. So, yeah, you’re absolutely right.
We’d also… by that point, we had a new A&R man at Sony, so we were being directed in a slightly different way and we were being encouraged. We were being encouraged, you know, like, “by all means, you can be a rock band, but the songs that you’re coming out with could take you even further.”
And they were expressing a more personal reflection, particularly coming from Dan (who, along with Tom – had lost his brother to Leukaemia) – so, there was this channel to express all this grief and, also, a sharpening of musical skills in being able to convey ideas through songwriting.
So, I get what you’re saying, but the way that it went, it kind of went the way of the songwriting formula, yeah.
It was an interesting time for music – the mid-90s – because there were a lot of bands emerging who were less bothered by genre boxes. Bands like Headswim, Senser, Feeder – all had hard rock sensibilities, and metallic elements that allowed them into Metal Hammer and Kerrang, but then also quite a strong emotional core that allowed the music to move beyond the potentially self-limiting boundaries of metal. So, I guess it was a good time for bands like Headswim because now, it feels like the internet (although it has opened up doors in one sense) is almost forcing bands to retrench genre positioning just so they can get heard – it felt like a very open time for what you could do as a band and not get forced back into your box.
You’re so right, and I think another really good point. You’re absolutely right and I guess the rock / metal thing that was going on with our generation when we were in Headswim – that was where guitar music was. Like heavier guitar music. Metal had really been solidified from its seventies routes and here it was, with all its different sub genres of hard, loud music. At the same time, our parents’ record collections were full of Art Garfunkel, and the Beatles, and the Rolling Stones, and the Small Faces. So, that was a big part of our lives as well. So, there was this kind of recognition of “isn’t this heavy stuff fun?!” But, at the same time, we had running through our blood this kind of melodic kind of songwriting aspect. So, I don’t know, maybe that kind of came out in some way or other with the bands that you mentioned – you could be right.
Of course, at the start of the 90s, you were doing things like Monsters of Rock, and you toured with Body Count but then, when I first saw you, it was at reading Festival, which was much more open to a range of genres. Did you feel, when you did Flood and you were touring with these heavy bands… was there a point where you were tempted to pursue the more metallic angle, or were you always more interested in pursuing a more open-ended rock style?
Hmmm – yeah, good one! Again, you’re right. I think we always felt that we could take the music in a different direction. We could be heavier if we wanted to. We had songs like Dead and Gone to Pot, and even heavier earlier material. But, at the same time, with Flood, we had songs like Years On Me, for example, which was completely different.
So, we had a confidence that we could not only combine different elements of music in our sound – we could pursue a purely hard, riff-based music if we wanted to – but there was this other, melodic songwriter aspect to our sound that we felt confident we could bring in as well. So, yeah, we were aware that, when we were touring with Monster Magnet, and we did a few gigs with Tool and other heavy bands – Body Count etc. Yeah, some of those bands that we played to were pleased with what we were doing and sometimes they were scratching their heads a bit, like “what is this?” [laughs] But I guess that’s just what we did. And it won us some fans and others were a bit bemused. I don’t know [laughs].
I had the opportunity to interview Andy, when the Flood reissue came out, and one of the things that’s always surprising is that, on paper – it looked like Headswim were hugely successful around the time of Despite Yourself, but behind the scenes – the financial side of things was nowhere near how the promotional materials made it look – that must have put all sorts of pressure on the band?
You’re absolutely right, another good question. Yeah, that’s right Philip – yeah, you’re absolutely right. I get that. From the outside, it must have looked pretty glossy! Plenty of posters everywhere. I remember, Tourniquet was played on the café jukebox on Eastenders a few times. So, we were kind of there. We were on TFI Friday, we were doing kids Saturday morning TV shows… looking a bit glum and self-conscious. [Laughs]
So, we did that kind of thing and, yeah – I get it – from the outside, it must have looked like we were on a journey and had plenty of funding behind us. Which, in some respects was absolutely correct. We left Sony with a million pounds in debt, believe it or not. But there was loads of pressure and, I think, particularly that pressure was on Dan Glendening’s shoulders. Particularly because, as we discussed earlier, with Despite Yourself, we went the sort of fully formed song-writer direction. It was then on Dan, really (and I think he felt it), to provide the material. It was kind of… I guess he was under pressure to provide top 20, top 30… top 10 material. That was what the record company wanted, after all, because they were investing in the band, and they wanted a return.
But, personally, maybe just because I was the humble bass player, I wasn’t particularly aware of that. But I know Dan, looking back, I can see that frown being an expression of pressure, I think he was under a lot of pressure.
We tried to… that pressure kind of reached a head when we tried to record a third album. Again, loads of money spent on us, Philip, I mean we were at Peter Gabriel’s Real World Studios – that’s a residential studio. I mean we were there for weeks. And we were in another studio, some kind of… I’ve forgotten the name, but it was up in Liverpool, and we were doing the pre-production kind of thing. So, we were working on material, hammering out songs together as a band, as well as Dan bringing songs to the band for us to combine our skills.
Looking back now, I just wish we’d released that record and moved on. But I think we’d reached a point where we were unsure. We didn’t know if it was good enough – what was expected of us – hindsight is a wonderful thing, but I wish we’d just (pardon my French) shat it out and moved on, you know? [Laughs]
I think there’s a huge jump from the independent band where it’s you against the world, and I think Flood feels like that. It’s gritty and it’s heavy, but there’s a kind of innocence to it. Whereas Despite Yourself has a maturity to it – there’s an intangible quality to it that’s hard to express… but I guess there’s a pressure that’s not always stated, but I guess you’re aware of it when you’re being taken to Real World and, for Despite Yourself, to Van Morrison’s studio?
Yeah, I think there had been a lot of growing up and a lot of realisation that the world can be a harsh place between Flood and Despite Yourself. And that tragedy can happen. You know, you’re four guys having a laugh in a rehearsal room, and all of a sudden, you’re bringing real-world experience to the songwriting process. So, yeah, I think we did grow up a lot and this kind of willingness to sort of goof around in Kerrang… you know, it seemed not the right sort of fit for the band we were during Despite Yourself. So, we were looking for a way to be taken seriously, without seeming too… arch, I guess. Whether we succeeded in that, I’m probably not the one to say.
But yeah, there was all that stuff. Wool Hall was another residential studio. I mean, times have really changed from then to now. Blimy, the life then for bands and now is entirely different, as I’m sure you’re aware. This was an 8-album record deal we had with Sony – 8 albums, can you believe it? So, yeah, we were expected to deliver long term. And I guess all that residential studio stuff was par for the course. They put us in there and hoped the quality of the studio would reflect in the final product – there you go.
I was talking to the drummer from Screaming Trees – Barrett Martin – and he related a story about how the label (and they were on also Sony) put them in these sorts of studios, and they had all the transport and accommodation, but they forgot to provide them with food, so the band ended up living off hotdogs and slices of pizza! So, it’s a strange juxtaposition of success and poverty – was it anything like that for you?
Another great question! How does all that work? What’s the mechanism behind all the glossy posters and all that? It is interesting, isn’t it? We paid ourselves a wage from our advance. We didn’t get a particularly big record advance compared to some bands. We all still lived at home, even at that point. I think Despite Yourself,maybe a couple of us had moved out of home, but we didn’t have enough money to secure long-term rent in flats an apartments, let alone a mortgage – that would have been completely out of the question.
But we did… from our record advance, we were able to pay ourselves a wage, which meant we could sign off the dole and we could give up whatever Saturday jobs we had – that kind of thing. So, we paid ourselves a wage and, you know, that kept us in drugs and beer! [Laughs]
And then, unlike the Screaming Trees – the poor sods – we weren’t forgotten, and we did get fed at these recording studios [laughs]. But yeah, at home, we weren’t swanning around like “look at us”. We weren’t buying Maserati or anything like that. We were kind of pragmatic men, so we were trying to think practically about how to make it work without having to think about a career afterwards, and to be in some way sensible in how we could maintain a life and be creative and, at some point, try to accrue some of that money that was being invested in us in order for us to move on in our lives and buy a flat, or have enough to rent long-term – that kind of thing.
So, on one side, there was us going from meetings in Sony Towers in Soho, but at the same time we were still going home and eating roast beef with our parents on a Sunday [laughs].
One of the things I love about the band, and I loved at the time, is that on record you have this very expansive sound, which can be explosive, but then on stage you were quite a lot more visceral. So, in terms of working through the production for the demos, did you have a fully formed idea of the sound you wanted vs the slightly grungy nature that inevitably comes from being in a studio and rocking out, or did the producer help you find that vision.
Good one – I guess in this case the producer came in to help us find it. I think we were looking for direction at that point because, you’re quite right, when we played live, we were a bit heavier really. We were comfortable with volume and power, and that transition from that kind of powerful sound on stage into the studio was one where, I think, we were kind of willing to be led. We needed to be led in terms of how to bring out the most melodic aspects of those songs.
Looking back now, I mean, Steve Osborne who produced Despite Yourself was a great producer (and no doubt still is). We really liked him because he was involved with Pills Thrills & Bellyaches, by Happy Mondays believe it or not. That’s an album we loved collectively as a band, so we were kind of thrilled when his name was thrown in to the hat.
Looking back, would it have been a different record if we’d stayed with Dave Eringa, who produced Flood and also produced, and still works a lot with, Manic Street Preachers. He was from a rockier, heavier background. We had that conversation recently – what would Despite Yourself have sounded like had we kept the recording studio and producer the same as Flood, but we’d gone into the studio with this more melodic set of songs? So, that might have balanced out a bit between what we were like live and how it sounds on vinyl. But, yeah, shoulda-woulda-coulda [laughs].
Having completed that album, as you said you went into the studio to do the third album. My understanding is the bulk of the songs ended up with BlackCar, because they were primarily Dan’s, but there were some whole band tracks that were worked on.
Y9ou’re absolutely right, that’s correct, yeah. About half of the album was Dan’s – he wrote it by himself. He then re-recorded them with his fabulous BlackCar project. But I don’t know, there were five or six songs that were more of a band effort, and they have remained unreleased. You can find a couple floating about on YouTube that I made a couple of videos for – about ten years ago now – but, initially, I went to the band (going back to your first question about seeing that article in the article about Sony dropping the debts); I went to the band with the proposition – “how about that third album, do you fancy releasing it one way or another?” There wasn’t an appetite between the four of us – there wasn’t consensus. But, there was an appetite to re-release Flood.
So, that was my initial idea to try and do something with that third album. Because, the way I see it now, although we didn’t like it at the time for whatever reason – we just weren’t happy with the way the third album was sounding… I don’t know where our heads were at the time. But, like I said earlier, I just wish we’d just recorded it, put it out and moved on. But it… yeah. Now, I don’t know, I’d have to ask the band and see what their thoughts are about it.
But I see it now – we’re middle-aged men and what does it matter? It doesn’t matter anymore! We’re not 27 – let’s just put it out. But that’s a question for my erstwhile band colleagues [laughs].
How close is it to releasable quality? Would it require mixing or additional tracking?
It was very much a monitor mix. So, we’d kind of recorded the backbone of the tracks – drums, bass guitars, vocals in some cases. Backing vocals as well. We’d got them to a point where it was OK, and we could then go on to the next level of production to polish up what we’d recorded. So, they’re raw, but they are by no means demos.
So, it probably would involve… you could take it to that level of getting the master tapes and really remixing, but I doubt there’s be that appetite among the band to go down that route – if an appetite exists to go anywhere near that third record at all.
I’d be happy just to go with those rough monitor mixes and remaster them somehow. Just to get the volumes level for each track and go down that route. So, yeah, they got to a point where it was like “where shall we go next with these tracks?” But we were in a funny state of mind then. The four of us. I don’t know why we were so indecisive, but we were. What can you do?!
I guess, it seems that when you have a very emotionally powerful artform and the pressures of commerce… and the tail end of the 90s, even then it felt like things were changing. Metallica sued Napster and there were ominous signs of where things might go. I guess all of that must have fed into it.
It probably did. For whatever reason, there was a kind of brooding disquiet amongst the four of us. A kind of indecisive element as to what we wanted to sound like. But now, looking back on it, I just think our heads must have been a bit fuzzy, because it really doesn’t matter. We could have had a break, got writing and made the next record. But it’s easier to say that now, isn’t it.
So, yeah, I guess there were things going on around us all – the music industry etc. But yeah, I just don’t know where our heads were at, because after that, when we left Sony – we were dropped from Sony – we went to record a single with a very small independent label called Pet Sounds, and we released a single called Dusty Road, which was a great Dan record. Looking back on it, I’m thinking “why didn’t we just continue with the third album and put Dusty Road on it?”
I don’t know. But we didn’t and there you go [laughs].
For fans, certainly, music acts like a time machine – how has it been for you to revisit these two very different periods of your life?
Good question – I sort of alluded to that a bit earlier, in that it’s been both interesting and revealing to look back on this material that we recorded. But, at the same time…
I can only speak for myself, Philip. For me, it’s like looking back on my personality and who I was over twenty-five years ago. So, I’m not… for instance, I’m not particularly personally enthused about putting the band back together and making another record or going out on tour. For some reason, there’s something a bit sickly and unhealthy about that. I think mentally it can be a bit damaging to go back and revisit your former self. We were four guys who were friends, but there was a certain amount of pressure among the four of us – we were living out of each other’s pockets really – and I kind of personally like to keep a distance.
So, it has been interesting but, at the same time, if you go digging, while you can find treasure, you can dig up a few decomposing corpses… which stink! So, I’m happy to put that treasure and those corpses back in the ground, if you know that I mean, and move on.
But I’ll tell you what, we’re all still friends. I’ve begun to write music, and Dan is… I promise you he’s going to make a great record at some point, I just know he will. So, yeah, it’s been an interesting experience. What a therapist would say about it, I’m not sure, but I hope I have conveyed to you what it’s like. It’s been both interesting and satisfying and, at the same time, I’ve been slightly repelled by it.
As I understood it, you had sort of downed your bass, post-Headswim, so did playing Flood in its entirety tempt you to start something again and was this after a lengthy break as it appears to have been?
Absolutely – it was a lengthy break. Yeah, of course, after the band broke up, I put down my bass, I kept it of course, but yeah, I just got a normal job. I’ve been in a miserable job. [Laughs] At least doing this Flood thing, the reissue with Trapped Animal, it’s been immensely enjoyable, and I feel flattered by the attention from the fans. I know we all do as a band; it’s been immensely satisfying.
But yeah, it’s made me investigate music again and I have found a rejuvenation in terms of music, and it’s been immensely satisfying for me and it’s a channel of expression I think I’ve been missing. So, I think I’m expressing myself again through music, which is wonderful. And I know Daniel is and, as for Tom and Nick, I’m sure they’re out there doing something and, given an opportunity, they’ll be creating something. Whether that will happen from the four of us together again… I don’t know – never say never! I don’t want you to think there’s something unpleasant about me saying that, it’s just that inspiration, if it falls on our four shoulders and we do collaborate again – that’s for fate to decide and not necessarily me. What can I say?
That makes perfect sense, but for me, you couldn’t ask for a more positive coda to this interview than to hear this process has brought you back to creating, whether that’s you in the attic with an acoustic, or doing something with some members, or all members, or completely new people – that’s a wonderful testament to the enduring power of the music you made with Headswim.
Yeah, absolutely. It really has. I’ve taken from this experience a fresh page. I’ve torn out the old page, I’ve read it, I’ve screwed it up and I’ve binned it. I’m on a fresh page now.
