One of the year’s most surprising releases, Virtual Control is the debut album from renowned Killing Joke drummer Big Paul Ferguson, for which you can find a glowing review here. Given the ferocity of Killing Joke, you might be forgiven for expecting Big Paul to be an intense presence, but he proves an affable and relaxed interviewee, calmly taking the time to consider each question and providing answers that are every bit as thoughtful and engaging as the lyrics found on Virtual Control. However, beyond the care Big Paul so obviously puts into his lyrics, what comes across most clearly is that, despite a self-stated cynicism (which surely applies to Big Paul’s world view), no such ennui has settled on the act of making music, and the joy Big Paul took in making the record is as clear when discussing its gestation as it is when you listen to the tracks…
I really enjoyed listening to your solo record and I was really surprised when I looked through the materials to find that it was your solo debut.
Um, yeah… that’s a matter of opinion. Two years ago… 2018, I brought out an EP, also with Mark Thwaite, called “Remote Viewing” and that was just seven tracks of sort of spoken word, with instrumentation. So, yeah, this is officially the first solo album.
So, in a way, it’s more of an evolution of what you started with the EP?
Indeed, yes. Yes, and this… granted, it’s still a little strange [laughs] but it has more of a song structure to it and I do attempt to sing on this one.
One of the things that the album really brought to my mind was the Reeves Gabrels period of David Bowie (I don’t know if you take that as a compliment or not), but I really enjoyed it.
Well thank you and yes, any comparison like that, how could I fail but to be flattered? But, you know, it is what it is. It started… basically, I wanted to re-release the first EP with some new tracks, but one thing led to another and, you know, ten tracks later, I realised it was definitely an album within itself. You know, I sort of… we’ve all been living in isolation to some extent, for the last eighteen months or so, so my influences are hard to pinpoint. I start a track rhythmically, usually, or with a bassline and it evolves from there. But, where the track’s headed, I’m never quite sure. It’s not like there’s a masterplan behind these, it’s just they come together. They work out, or they don’t, but I’m blessed with having Mark Thwaite as a collaborator. He lives on the West Coast, so it is a matter of me recording what I can in my basement and sending files to Mark to put the sparkly bits on top.
I like the idea of writing songs as a journey, and one of the things I’ve found with modern recording equipment (and particularly things like Ableton and Pro Tools) you can actually start out with something and it almost leads you by the hand, whereas when you were using the old four-track tape recorders, you had to have everything kinda mapped out in advance to make it work, and I think you can get quite a dynamic journey through the music in that kind of way.
Well, yeah! One of the reasons I’m now able to make a solo record is exactly that. I’m not… I’m no expert at using any of these programs, so it’s still a learning curve for me. But, you know, for years I’d be writing demos on my Tascam four-track, and they’d never go anywhere except into the bin – I’ve got a box full of them now. But now, again, being able to share files with, you know, a better musician than myself, it’s great to put down the sketch of an idea and then say: “what do you think of this? Can you clean it up for me?”
And then, when Mark has cleaned up some of the bits, then I can sit back and put the lyrics on top and actually, yeah, it is an adventure – just getting to a song that you like at the end of a sketchy idea, it’s quite exciting.
It’s interesting too, there was an interview I was watching with R.E.M. from years back, and they were talking about how they got competent at their instruments and that’s why they then started to pick up other instruments, like Mandolins and stuff, just to have a new challenge – and I like that philosophy because when you’re trying to do things with instruments (or software) that you don’t know, there’s almost a freshness because you’re trying to feel your way through it and it comes across as new, rather than professional and fixed… there’s a naivety to that which is really captivating.
Well, in this case in particular [laughs] yes indeed! I’ve dabbled with bass guitar, guitar, and keyboards over the years, but I’ve never been proficient in any of them and never really wanted to be. It was just, as long as I could get an idea across, then I could leave it to more proficient musicians on those particular instruments to do the part.
But, you know, I’ve been with Killing Joke for a number of years, and I know how song-writing goes, but for myself to be exploring it, it is a different thing. I’m not really trying to stick to any song-writing formula, I’m just exploring mostly, some rhythms and some lyrical ideas. That Mark should be able to put some great riffs on top is gravy and, obviously, he did a lot of the mixing on this album and, between us, I’m quite pleased with what we’ve got.
So, you’ve also got collaborations with Tim Skold and Jurgen Engler. The Tim Skold track, in particular, I thought was particularly cinematic and I wondered how you sought those collaborations out?
Well, I was introduced to Jurgen through the mastering of the record. He’s one of Cleopatra’s artists and, they had asked me (or rather he had asked me) to put some drums on a Die Krupps cover of a Gang of Four song. I’m friends with Hugo Burnham from Gang of Four and I asked him if it was OK that I should do that and he said “of course”, so we did this cover and then I thought that the “Dystopian Vibe” could use a, you know, German voice and I asked Jurgen if he’d be into it, and he was happy to go ahead.
Tim Skold, I didn’t know, but the track that he sang on, really needed a little boost in the choruses and he had the perfect voice to do it. So, again, through the record company, they approached him and asked him if he’d be into doing it and, thankfully, he was.
I’m very pleased that both of these guys took the time to do this. It’s always a bit nerve wracking when you’re so close to a piece of music, you actually don’t know… you think it’s good yourself, but you don’t know how the rest of the world is going to perceive it. So, that a couple of guys of this calibre would see some good in it, and collaborate, was a real boost.
You’ve touched on something there – when you’ve had a really impressive musical career already – when you take that step of putting your own name onto a piece of art, I think it’s… on the one hand, it can be very liberating, but on the other hand, it’s nerve wracking because you never know how a piece of art will be interpreted or appreciated by the audience, and I was wondering how you felt when it came time to release this under your own name?
Well, firstly, I had finished the record back in the October of last year and I was keen to push it out of the door immediately so that I wouldn’t have any second thoughts. I thought, well, let’s just throw it at the wall and see what sticks. But then, because of COVID or whatever, all the pressing plants were backed up, so I was told that I’d have to wait six months before it came out. Six months is a long time to double think everything that you’ve done and to start thinking “oh my god, what have I done? This should all be better than it is… I should have sung better, I should have done this, that and the other.” But I resolved to leave it as it is and just, you know, move on because you can overthink things. I’ve got no idea what Killing Joke fans, or anybody else, is going to make of this record, but I felt good about the songs when I finished this record and everything else is up to the universe. But you can’t let fear and doubt stop your creativity. You’ve just got to keep pushing it.
You once said (I was reading through interviews that you’ve done in the past) that, although you and Jaz have shared an interest in the occult, your interest was more intellectual than practical and, when I was looking at the lyrics to the album and the song titles, it made me think about how the occult and the spiritual world is a lens with which to understand the world around you – and I wondered how much your study of the occult as an intellectual pursuit played into the writing of the lyrics.
Oh, well, I can’t say that I’ve spent much time thinking about that in particular. I’ve got an open mind and I’ve got my interests and, you know, it’s very difficult to put everything into a particular order or a particular philosophy because, I think it’s a vast world out there, full of information, and I cannot pretend to have a handle on it all. Particularly now, we’re at a very interesting moment in time where we’re all so dependent on technology and, you know, also distracted by technology. And distracted by entertainment. By… by meaningless things. I can’t for the life of me deduce what is behind all of it, or what we’re supposed to do about it. But it’s all part and parcel of life and it’s interesting to see how much historically is just ignored to our detriment, really.
That’s an interesting perspective because you’ve said that you can’t pretend to have the answers, and I think I prefer that in an artist’s lyrical approach – to pose questions and to leave things open to interpretation rather than to be didactic about things.
Well, yeah, that’s my feeling. I’m aware of a lot of things. I read. I read history, I read the occult… whatever. But, you know, it hasn’t given me any answers yet. It’s just a very, very interesting journey. But it does strike me that so many people are ignorant of what’s happened before, and it’s kind of shocking that people still settle for far less than they should. We’re basically led down the path of mindlessness and, maybe there’s something wrong with the education system, I don’t know. Or maybe it’s deliberate. It’s hard not to see it as that.
I agree, when you look at the systematic dismantling of the education system… and particularly the way that things like critical thinking are pushed to one side in favour of very fixed world view subjects, it’s disheartening to say the least.
Yeah – incredibly. You know, the education system was set up, basically, because they didn’t want workers who were too stupid to perform their basic functions in a factory and, I think, perhaps the same is true now. They don’t really need critical thinking; they just want consumers. Whoever “they” are, I don’t know! [Laughs]
You obviously had to put yourself into some quite dark places to deal with some of the subject matter. Particularly titles like “plausible deniability” – one of the most cynical political phrases in an already cynical, Machiavellian playbook. Was it difficult to adopt the mindset to craft the lyrics for tracks like that?
For me, no. That’s the mindset that I live in! [Laughs] That is my habitat. Maybe I am just a cynic, I don’t know. I do see this all as very Machiavellian. The thing is, I don’t understand how people are so stupid that they fall for all this shit! That’s the problem. People are tolerating it because they’re distracted. I’ll say it again, I don’t know the answers, so what exactly we’re rebelling against is a matter of opinion. But billionaires going into space when the world is burning up because of fossil fuels. People can’t get medical care over here, but there are multi-multi-billionaires just raking it in and indulging in their little fantasies. I’m sorry, it’s just wrong. Why do we tolerate it?
It seems that it’s that never ending flood of information that pushes you and pulls you in every direction so, if you don’t have that… well, again, critical thinking is useful. A knowledge of history is useful. So, if you don’t engage with that, then you’ll be too willing to be persuaded of wherever your heart already lies. So, if it’s consumption, for example, it’s very easy to just turn away and read The Telegraph or, whichever evil, News Corp publication on which you care to focus.
Yeah, it’s true. We’re all addicted to our comfort zone. I include myself in that as well. Unfortunately for me and my loving wife, my comfort zone tends to be a rather dark and cynical place. But, yes folks, where is the critical thinking?
Thinking musically, it’s kind of the case that drumming is… it powers the music, and it powers the songs, but it’s easily forgotten in a lot of reviews, even though it’s a huge part of what you’re listening to. But I’ve always really enjoyed the dynamic in your style, and particularly the way you seem to hold back a lot on cymbals to create more of a push and pull between things.
Drumming is very important in my life. I’m fairly obsessed by it, perhaps more now than in the early days. I don’t know what to comment on that – I think drums are important rhythmically, for structure, for sound. Everybody responds to a rhythmic impulse, and, without that, the music makes no sense at all. Notes without rhythm are meaningless, so we all respond to the pulse of life. That’s just the way I think and the way I hear things.
You know, I can listen to an awful lot of music that possibly is very annoying, but I’m not hearing the top lines, I’m listening to the drums and listening to what the rhythm of it is. So, yeah, I do what I do and the way I hear things… it doesn’t mean that drums have to be at the forefront of everything, but they certainly are the basis of it all.
I agree. But perhaps it’s the fact that it’s so integral, that people maybe don’t notice it until they’re wrong or, maybe, overplayed. You can hear a drum beat in a song and be captivated by it, but not really aware that that’s the case. But if it changes, or if you put something that’s clearly counter to what’s going on, then you really notice it.
Well, indeed. There are some incredibly clever drummers out there right now and rhythm is a fascinating thing to explore and, obviously, different cultures hear rhythm differently. It can be an incredibly complex world, rhythm. But, also, a simple groove can do so much to propel the body, the felling, the good will, whatever. You don’t notice it until it’s wrong!
But, of course, you’ve taken approaches in the past that are very unusual and very dynamic, stripping parts back and, in paces, removing cymbals altogether, which is really cool, because you hear it differently and you can feel that kind of tribal pulse. And, you know, you don’t even notice what’s missing until a cymbal hit comes in and it’s like “woah!” …
[Laughs] Yeah, I don’t know what started that off in me. I happen to love the sound of cymbals for the most part, but I have, on occasion, very, very methodically removed cymbals from the drum kit. More to make the drums themselves the focus and to get away from that jazzy, splashy sort of sound that we’re so accustomed to. But, you know, you use the instrument that you need at the time and to convey the message that you want at the time, so yeah, I’m happy that you noticed.
Speaking of using instruments in a different way, there’s quite a lot of programmed percussion on there too, and I really like the juxtaposition of the live and synth drums that you have achieved here.
Yeah, I have used electronic loops. I find them really a lot of fun to play to and, when I’m building a song, sometimes inadvertently, they become an integral part of the song. I start out with the intention of not having them there, but playing along with them, but then I find I like them and so keep them there. I like to use a bit of hand percussion as well but, you know, it’s all rhythm and it all suits the needs. I like this sort of semi-industrial dance kind of vibe that I think I’ve incorporated a bit into both records and it’s better than playing with another drummer! [laughs]
It comes back to that first thing we were talking about – that idea of the song as a journey – and, particularly with loops, you can take something very simple and you keep augmenting it as it loops round and, from that, you can get this amazing collage of sound.
Um, yeah, yeah. I absolutely agree with you. That’s not to say that they become the focus of the song, but they’re certainly a very interesting springboard for creativity.
Having produced this album, and I enjoyed reviewing it no end, but you’re out on the road with Killing Joke now, so do you see yourself ever taking this out on the road, or is this more of a studio project?
This is more of a studio project, I think. The idea of me being at the front of the stage singing is not something that appeals to me very much and I think drummers singing at centre stage is a bit naff… [laughs] So, yeah, I think this may remain a studio project. I reserve the right to change my mind, but I’m certainly not planning on it.
On the flip side, then, having had this experience (and you seem to have a fantastic collaborative relationship with Mark Thwaite), do you see yourself developing some new material in the future?
Yeah. We’ve got a couple of things on the go already and I’ve got a bin load of ideas. But, right now, the focus is Killing Joke. I’m really happy to be talking about my solo project and, obviously I want it to get as much publicity as I can possibly get for it, but in terms of writing at the moment, Killing Joke are trying to put a new record together and we’ve got demos going now, and if we could communicate with each other a little better we might have an album soon. So, that’s the priority at the moment and the focus now. And of course, we’ll have shows next year and if all goes well, and the world doesn’t go to hell in a handbasket, we’ll be doing that for the next couple of years. But, having said that, whenever there’s time and Mark isn’t too busy, we’ll certainly continue what we’ve started here.
We have to hope that shows will come back soon. I’ve been working at home since February 2020 and the walls are starting to speak back to me!
Yeah, it’s incredibly hot here right now (I’m in Baltimore) and it’s been 100 or thereabouts this last week or two and likewise – I’ve been in the house, and I’ve been fairly happy. I can play drums or do my jewellery or whatever, but I’m reaching the breaking point of “I cannot watch any more Netflix” [laughs] and I don’t trust anybody, hahaha.
Thank you so much, it’s been a real pleasure to speak with you, and I really enjoyed spending time with the album too – for me (and I know everyone hears these things differently), there are elements od Bowie and Killing Joke and even a bit of King Crimson, and it was a real privilege to review.
Well, thank you very much indeed. Funny that you should mention King Crimson – one of my all-time favourite bands, but I didn’t realise they had influenced any of this, but well spotted!
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